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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:33 am 
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WOW! Thanks for those great excamples Larry!
And very good advise....

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:42 am 
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Larry, I'm glad you showed the pics. That's exactly what I was describing as severe bi-directional runout. In this case, it amounts to the same thing as end grain I guess, but worse....it shows up as both ends of a small hunk of wood, and can tear out. Nasty stuff potentially.
Perhaps I was thinking the same thing but calling it something else. As long as I don't see that grain on the edges like that, I feel it's ok to use, which is more common in the wider curl. That tight curl looks great, but I'm not putting it on my guitar...

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:58 am 
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Cocobolo
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I have a redwood top that I started to build a guitar with. Nice, even grain, no runout. Took it to the bandsaw to cut out the outline and it split down one of the grain lines. Bam, a bunch of money down the drain. How do you deal with the splityness of this wood?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:23 am 
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I hesitate to ask, but how course of a bandsaw blade were you using?
I also hesitate to suggest, that perhaps you could glue the top with hide glue and reinforce the back, especially if it was an expensive top...


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:34 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I, too, have had trouble from time to time gluing redwood. It's almost as if it was waxy, although it's not. Two things I've found that help: only glue freshly worked surfaces, and alow the glue to dry completely before you remove the clamps. The surface of redwood seems to react quickly once it's exposed, and glue doesn't stick well once the surface energy has gone down. I like to give redwood the full 24 hours to dry if possible.

The splittyness is a real issue, and about all you can do is realize that it is and take precautions. Mostly, avoid shock loads, such as sawing a thin top with a skip-tooth blade.

Ken Parker used redwood as a cor material in the early 'Fly' guitars. He said it tended to have a real split personality: some pieces were fine, and others were unstable, splitty and all in all hard to work with. He switched to spruce, iirc, and never had any more problems of the sort. I've noticed the same thing. When redwod is good, it's very good, but when it's bad, it's terrible.

One issue: trees put on their new wood in tension trelative to the layers underneath. This, of course, puts a compression load on the inside of the tree. On big trees the compression and the weight of the tree can combine to exceed the compressive strength of the wod, and it will microfracture. You can't see this, but the wood will tend to fail catastrophically in bending. I've seen other types of flaws in redwood that could be related to this as well.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:50 am 
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Cocobolo
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Here's
another pic that illustrates how much endgrain might
be present in a typical curly redwood top....

And this is a pic of a mildly figured split billet...

I've seen as much as a 3" variation between the height of the curl and the
bottom of the trough in curly redwood.....

That is "endgrain" no matter how you slice it...
(On-quarter, that is.....)   

And I'm not saying it's a bad idea to glue a bridge onto the stuff....
I'm just curious if anyone out there is having problems doing so....


spruce38903.6232986111


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:31 am 
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Yep. You are right! Sure is pretty though....too bad eh?
I've heard of folks reinforcing the bridge somehow through the top on these things. Not sure exactly whether they used fine bolts or something. It sure would seem to need it though.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:08 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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[QUOTE=Don Williams] Yep. You are right! Sure is pretty though....too bad eh?
I've heard of folks reinforcing the bridge somehow through the top on these things. Not sure exactly whether they used fine bolts or something. It sure would seem to need it though.[/QUOTE]

duct tape I think ...   

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:58 am 
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Koa
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Great info, thanks to all

Mike
White Oak, Texas


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:52 am 
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Cocobolo
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Keep in mind that I'm more of a player and an aspiring luthier at this point. Redwood *rocks*. The guitar Lance built for me with a "LS" redwood top is clearly one of the greatest sounding instruments I've ever had the pleasure of running into. If you'd like a recording as a reference point, Lance or I can make sure you get one.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:45 pm 
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Koa
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[QUOTE=Alan Carruth]The splittyness is a real issue, and about all you can do is realize that it is and take precautions. Mostly, avoid shock loads, such as sawing a thin top with a skip-tooth blade.

Ken Parker used redwood as a cor material in the early 'Fly' guitars. He said it tended to have a real split personality: some pieces were fine, and others were unstable, splitty and all in all hard to work with. He switched to spruce, iirc, and never had any more problems of the sort. I've noticed the same thing. When redwod is good, it's very good, but when it's bad, it's terrible.

One issue: trees put on their new wood in tension trelative to the layers underneath. This, of course, puts a compression load on the inside of the tree. On big trees the compression and the weight of the tree can combine to exceed the compressive strength of the wod, and it will microfracture. You can't see this, but the wood will tend to fail catastrophically in bending. I've seen other types of flaws in redwood that could be related to this as well. [/QUOTE]

I had two redwood tops split unexpectedly. I had resawn them from a nice qs plank. They were adjacent cuts, too. So, I went back and looked at the tops that were adjacent to these two and noticed a very fine light colored line right where the splits occurred. Not a crack. The only reason why I noticed it as being slightly different at all was because I was able to stack the tops together and examine the end grain, comparing the split pieces with the ones still intact.

So I tested the next top set in the stack, flexing it moderately, and bang. It busted into two pieces, right on that line.

Something I discovered when I resawed my first sets of redwood was the wood can develop internal cracks that are not necessarily visible until you start resawing. I was using a friend's bandsaw to do the resawing at the time (a big honking 21" Felder), and showed him the cracks that became uncovered after resawing a few pieces. He called them -- I forget the term he used now -- something like "wind splits." He explained that, when the tree was young and flexible, it had probably been subjected to high winds, causing it to bend to the point of splitting internally.

So, I got to thinking that, if this is true, then possibly the light colored lines I observed were close to where splits had developed further into the tree. I would check through my stash to see if there is any veracity to this, since I've kept some of the tops that have the cracks in them, and see if the light lines might coincide with the splits. But I can't right now. I'm in Connecticut as I type this, about 1700 miles from home. (I'm here for the 2nd Annual International 10-string Guitar Festival, held in Faifield, CT this year. I'll post pics later. Just got in about an hour ago.)

Also, I've also had splintering issues when trimming tops to approximate shape. For me, a jig saw I used to use for this was the worst culprit. To eliminate this from happening anymore, now I always cut the tops to shape before I thickness them. Even when using a 4tpi bandsaw blade (not a skip tooth, though), it isn't a problem anymore.

Best,

Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:43 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian
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I love the stuff I agree with Hesh on the great overtones.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:29 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Yes indeed!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:31 am 
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Koa
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[QUOTE=Michael McBroom]
Something I discovered when I resawed my first sets of redwood was the wood can develop internal cracks that are not necessarily visible until you start resawing. I was using a friend's bandsaw to do the resawing at the time (a big honking 21" Felder), and showed him the cracks that became uncovered after resawing a few pieces. He called them -- I forget the term he used now -- something like "wind splits." He explained that, when the tree was young and flexible, it had probably been subjected to high winds, causing it to bend to the point of splitting internally.

So, I got to thinking that, if this is true, then possibly the light colored lines I observed were close to where splits had developed further into the tree. got in about an hour ago.)


Best,

Michael
[/QUOTE]

Michael, unfortunately there are "wind fractures" or falling fractures in some large old trees. If a tree was young and flexible it wouldn't happen. The fractures are very visible on cut lumber, but I imagine spotting it in a log with bark on would be difficult. It would certainly show up on a peeled log. This type of fracture can happen when a tree is felled and it strikes a sharp opbject like a stump. If the blow is severe enough the bole with shatter of course. Tall trees can be subjected to wind stress and fracture on the opposite wind direction side of the tree. These fractures always appear from the bark side to the pith..always..and can resemble little spider webs of breaks. I've seen this predominately in some of the more brittle and light weight figured woods of a species like koa, mahogany, redwood and western red cedar for example.

Here's a photo of a nice piece of quartersawn koa with wind/falling fractures. It can be frustrating and is part of the dice game of buying units of expensive wood to find much of this defect which makes it useless.



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:25 am 
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Cocobolo
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"So I tested the next top set in the stack, flexing it moderately, and bang.
It busted into two pieces, right on that line. "


Unfortunatly, this is fairly common in redwood...
(And I'm talking straight and unfigured redwood here....)

It's very hard to spot in billet form, and flexing tops is really the only way to
detect this flaw...


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